Comments on: Lua, TeX, LaTeX and ConTeXt http://www.texdev.net/2009/05/21/lua-tex-latex-and-context/ Coding in the TeX world Tue, 20 Jul 2010 18:48:03 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=abc By: LuaLateX runs @ Debian unstable (“Sid”) : Granthinām http://www.texdev.net/2009/05/21/lua-tex-latex-and-context/comment-page-1/#comment-2123 LuaLateX runs @ Debian unstable (“Sid”) : Granthinām Sat, 23 Jan 2010 16:11:59 +0000 http://www.texdev.net/?p=298#comment-2123 [...] Wollmilchsau” one could say in German (for a collection of advantages of that approach see here). On the professional level that means that the rebuild engine could have been made much more [...] [...] Wollmilchsau” one could say in German (for a collection of advantages of that approach see here). On the professional level that means that the rebuild engine could have been made much more [...]

]]> By: Joseph Wright http://www.texdev.net/2009/05/21/lua-tex-latex-and-context/comment-page-1/#comment-979 Joseph Wright Tue, 26 May 2009 18:03:58 +0000 http://www.texdev.net/?p=298#comment-979 I've always thought that XML is fine as an exchange format, but that I'm not sure about it as an input format for end users. The LaTeX input format is much "nicer" to write, I'd say. So I'd agree that the challenge is to define a version of LaTeX which works for LaTeX and is easy to convert to well-formed XML. I'd guess that needs to be done using LaTeX itself, suggesting some kind of LaTeX-to-XML two-way functionality for LaTeX3. I’ve always thought that XML is fine as an exchange format, but that I’m not sure about it as an input format for end users. The LaTeX input format is much “nicer” to write, I’d say. So I’d agree that the challenge is to define a version of LaTeX which works for LaTeX and is easy to convert to well-formed XML. I’d guess that needs to be done using LaTeX itself, suggesting some kind of LaTeX-to-XML two-way functionality for LaTeX3.

]]> By: Tomek http://www.texdev.net/2009/05/21/lua-tex-latex-and-context/comment-page-1/#comment-973 Tomek Sun, 24 May 2009 10:32:21 +0000 http://www.texdev.net/?p=298#comment-973 XML input in not such a problem. It is the other way around that gives a lot of headaches. Some people advocate XML as an alternative/successor to LaTeX, but its verbosity is a show stopper for many. As a side note, one interresting example w.r.t. XML verbosity is RELAX NG: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RELAX_NG It has a compact syntax that is isomorphic to its XML representation. XML input in not such a problem. It is the other way around that gives a lot of headaches. Some people advocate XML as an alternative/successor to LaTeX, but its verbosity is a show stopper for many.

As a side note, one interresting example w.r.t. XML verbosity is RELAX NG:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RELAX_NG

It has a compact syntax that is isomorphic to its XML representation.

]]> By: Aditya Mahajan http://www.texdev.net/2009/05/21/lua-tex-latex-and-context/comment-page-1/#comment-972 Aditya Mahajan Sun, 24 May 2009 07:08:21 +0000 http://www.texdev.net/?p=298#comment-972 Dealing with xml input is one of the places where lua really shines (compared to TeX82). You can easily write parsers in lua. ConTeXt already has two different parsers for xml, and it is relatively straight forward to typeset xml documents directly. Some users use xml as the input format, and some are typing to write a style for the xml generated by open office. Dealing with xml input is one of the places where lua really shines (compared to TeX82). You can easily write parsers in lua. ConTeXt already has two different parsers for xml, and it is relatively straight forward to typeset xml documents directly. Some users use xml as the input format, and some are typing to write a style for the xml generated by open office.

]]> By: Joseph Wright http://www.texdev.net/2009/05/21/lua-tex-latex-and-context/comment-page-1/#comment-962 Joseph Wright Sat, 23 May 2009 08:55:50 +0000 http://www.texdev.net/?p=298#comment-962 Leo, I can see the HURD analogy, but things are a bit different there as there is Linux. The comparison doesn't quite add up in the TeX world: ConTeXt is more complementary to LaTeX than Linux is to HURD. I'd also agree that getting something out of the door is the priority. That doesn't mean that engine ideas are not worth discussion. Hence my suggestion that a planned move to newer engines "in the future" is the best compromise: deliver something, then move over time but with this flagged in advance. Leo,

I can see the HURD analogy, but things are a bit different there as there is Linux. The comparison doesn’t quite add up in the TeX world: ConTeXt is more complementary to LaTeX than Linux is to HURD.

I’d also agree that getting something out of the door is the priority. That doesn’t mean that engine ideas are not worth discussion. Hence my suggestion that a planned move to newer engines “in the future” is the best compromise: deliver something, then move over time but with this flagged in advance.

]]> By: Leo http://www.texdev.net/2009/05/21/lua-tex-latex-and-context/comment-page-1/#comment-955 Leo Fri, 22 May 2009 18:22:47 +0000 http://www.texdev.net/?p=298#comment-955 Tomek, Which engine latex3 is based on is invisible to users. I think it is more important to get something out of the door. I am only interested in that because I am not technical enough to speak about the merits of each engine although I sense LuaTeX is a good candidate. Leo Tomek,

Which engine latex3 is based on is invisible to users. I think it is more important to get something out of the door. I am only interested in that because I am not technical enough to speak about the merits of each engine although I sense LuaTeX is a good candidate.

Leo

]]> By: Leo http://www.texdev.net/2009/05/21/lua-tex-latex-and-context/comment-page-1/#comment-954 Leo Fri, 22 May 2009 18:12:28 +0000 http://www.texdev.net/?p=298#comment-954 Joseph, The situation with LaTeX3 now reminds me of GNU hurd http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd.html. It is been under development longer than LaTeX3 and now is almost completely lost with the emerging of Linux ;) Leo Joseph,

The situation with LaTeX3 now reminds me of GNU hurd http://www.gnu.org/software/hurd/hurd.html. It is been under development longer than LaTeX3 and now is almost completely lost with the emerging of Linux ;)

Leo

]]> By: Tomek http://www.texdev.net/2009/05/21/lua-tex-latex-and-context/comment-page-1/#comment-953 Tomek Fri, 22 May 2009 14:01:52 +0000 http://www.texdev.net/?p=298#comment-953 @Leo, if read my argumentation on c.t.t. for making LuaTeX an explicit dependency for LaTeX3, you will see that this is not about coding in Lua at all. I give more explanation in the thread but in short, if you release LaTeX 3.0 with minimal requirements of pdfTeX, then you make a commitment to support that even if you decide to switch to LuaTeX in the future. I see this as a decision to accumulate legacy baggage that will only drag on you later on. This is not the end of the world, but I think it's good to realize that fact. In the context of what's wrong with LaTeX2e I think that by far the bigest problem is that LaTeX2e as a document delivery format is not structured enough and too much tied to TeX. This lies at the base of many other problems, one of them is getting content out of LaTeX sources. The example given at c.t.t. of "Optics Express" journal urging users to switch to Word is just frightening. It's a clear sign that LaTeX is on its way out from the publishing industry. Once that happens, it will not make its way back no matter what. That would be a truly serious blow to the LaTeX community. @Leo, if read my argumentation on c.t.t. for making LuaTeX an explicit dependency for LaTeX3, you will see that this is not about coding in Lua at all. I give more explanation in the thread but in short, if you release LaTeX 3.0 with minimal requirements of pdfTeX, then you make a commitment to support that even if you decide to switch to LuaTeX in the future. I see this as a decision to accumulate legacy baggage that will only drag on you later on. This is not the end of the world, but I think it’s good to realize that fact.

In the context of what’s wrong with LaTeX2e I think that by far the bigest problem is that LaTeX2e as a document delivery format is not structured enough and too much tied to TeX. This lies at the base of many other problems, one of them is getting content out of LaTeX sources. The example given at c.t.t. of “Optics Express” journal urging users to switch to Word is just frightening. It’s a clear sign that LaTeX is on its way out from the publishing industry. Once that happens, it will not make its way back no matter what. That would be a truly serious blow to the LaTeX community.

]]> By: Joseph Wright http://www.texdev.net/2009/05/21/lua-tex-latex-and-context/comment-page-1/#comment-951 Joseph Wright Fri, 22 May 2009 12:44:44 +0000 http://www.texdev.net/?p=298#comment-951 Leo, The LaTeX3 fund certainly contains some money, but as I understand it not at the level where it would pay for someone to work full time on LaTeX3. LuaTeX has gained funding from various sources, I think, with lots of small parcels adding up to a reasonable amount. Even if there were the money, I'm not sure if there is anyone "available" to develop LaTeX3 full time at the moment! On my microkernel idea, TUG was not picked by Google this year. There are some issues with getting something together, but I'd hope that if we can get the next phase of LaTeX3 sorted then we may be in a position to produce a kernel. It won't do much to start with! Leo,

The LaTeX3 fund certainly contains some money, but as I understand it not at the level where it would pay for someone to work full time on LaTeX3. LuaTeX has gained funding from various sources, I think, with lots of small parcels adding up to a reasonable amount. Even if there were the money, I’m not sure if there is anyone “available” to develop LaTeX3 full time at the moment!

On my microkernel idea, TUG was not picked by Google this year. There are some issues with getting something together, but I’d hope that if we can get the next phase of LaTeX3 sorted then we may be in a position to produce a kernel. It won’t do much to start with!

]]> By: Joseph Wright http://www.texdev.net/2009/05/21/lua-tex-latex-and-context/comment-page-1/#comment-950 Joseph Wright Fri, 22 May 2009 12:41:41 +0000 http://www.texdev.net/?p=298#comment-950 Vafa, Sorry if I come across as negative. The point I'm aiming at is that *at the moment* there is no experimental LaTeX3 format as such. There are a number of packages which the team are trying to build on. I hope this will lead to a working LaTeX3, but at the moment things are not in the same situation as say LuaTeX or ConTeXt Mark IV. They both have a lot of material already done, and we can all be confident they will deliver. I working on LaTeX3 with the exception it will work: otherwise I'd rather be wasting my time. I just can't say *today* that things are as clear as they are for other current projects. If things go the way I hope, my assessment in 6 months to a years time will be different. Vafa,

Sorry if I come across as negative. The point I’m aiming at is that *at the moment* there is no experimental LaTeX3 format as such. There are a number of packages which the team are trying to build on. I hope this will lead to a working LaTeX3, but at the moment things are not in the same situation as say LuaTeX or ConTeXt Mark IV. They both have a lot of material already done, and we can all be confident they will deliver. I working on LaTeX3 with the exception it will work: otherwise I’d rather be wasting my time. I just can’t say *today* that things are as clear as they are for other current projects. If things go the way I hope, my assessment in 6 months to a years time will be different.

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